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Bismillah Ar-Rahmaan Ar-Raheem.
Alhumdulillah. Peace and blessings on Muhammad (sallalahu alaihi wa sallam), his Noble Companions and Family.
Brothers and sisters…
Assalaamualaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakaatuh
Audio on http://www.islamiccenterdc.com/apps/videos/videos/show/18760786-leadership-legitimacy-power-authority-in-islam-by-imam-muhammad-al-asi-with-q-a-11-18-2007-toronto (11-18-2007)
LEADERSHIP, LEGITIMACY, POWER AND AUTHORITY IN ISLAM- Q&A
Welcome everybody to this program. We have three panellists today. On my immediate right is Imam Doctor Ziad Delic who is the director of the Canadian Islamic Congress; next to him is Imam Muhammad Al Asi from Washington DC , a fellow at the Institute of Contemporary Iraq
Perhaps I would start off with Muhammad Al Asi. Since the invasion and US occupation of Iraq
Imam Muhammad Al Asi: No. I think the American occupation and invasion of Iraq was obviously planned to be short term (with) minimal casualties and then a furtherance of military operation to the neighbouring countries of Iraq which are Iran and Syria
Q: So let me turn to Imam Delic at this point. We are told that there is resistance in Iraq against the foreign occupiers and the Americans and their allies refer to it as terrorism. How would you describe this? Is it terrorism or is it resistance?
Imam Delic: When people come to your house and they are not welcome definitely you have right to defend yourself. I believe that Iraqis have full right to demand from the Americans to go home as they have full right to ask the International community to help them attain their goal. So making it very short- those who are really fighting for the people of Iraq have full right to ask the Americans to leave and that could not be called by any term as terrorism.
Q: Thank you. I'd like to move on to Moulana Hassan Mujtaba. We've heard a great deal about sectarian conflict in Iraq. I would like to get your take on it. What is happening in Iraq? Is there sectarianism conflict? Prior to the American invasion there was no sectarianism conflict in Iraq. There has never been any history of sectarian conflict in Iraq as such. So what happened? How did this emerge after the American invasion of Iraq?
Moulana Mujtaba: In regard to the violence that is going on in Iraq, it is actually a small projection of what the whole world is facing in regard to the Muslim Ummah. This part of being divided into two sects and us getting involved in hurting each other and killing each other is not serving the purpose for the greater purpose of Islam; it is serving the purpose for the enemies of Islam. As long as we are weak it is going to strengthen the enemy. Before the fact that America got into Iraq the differences still existed between the two sects but there was a majority that was ruling the minority and the minority was suppressed by the majority and in that suppression there was no instigation to actually have the violence that is present today but, in sort of not harmony but in tolerance they existed; but right now if they were to get together the major downfall of that is going to be for the enemies. So the sectarian violence is actually in favour of America because they have instigated it, not just in Iraq. It seems to be the enemies of Islam's policy to instigate that in every time so that the Muslims cannot unite together.
Q: So now maybe I can turn to Imam Al Asi. If that's the case then all of this sectarianism is instigated by the Americans. How does one explain this terrible situation in Baghdad? For instance, prior to the American invasion the population was about 72% Sunni, (and I use the word advisably, we don't want to create division but 72% of the population in Baghdad was Sunni), and today 70% has become Shi'i. How has this come about? I mean why in 3 or 4 years has this change come about?
Imam Muhammad Al Asi: Well, to answer that question you'd have to look at what the American master plan is. The American master plan is to ferment, contrary to what they are saying… The American media is saying "it wants a stable Iraq. It wants the Sunnis and Shi'is to get along and the Kurds and Arabs to reconcile and let bygones be bygones and begin a new chapter" and all of this stuff- that's pure propaganda. There is a more sinister Kissingerian type of plan that wants Iraq to actually disintegrate particularly along Sunni-Shi'i lines hoping that this will be a beginning and this Sunni-Shi'i divide will spread into surrounding areas, particularly the areas in which there is a lot of oil, (viz.), the Persian Gulf, the Arabian Peninsula. If instability can be generated there along Sunni-Shi'i divisions- then no problem, let it spread into other areas where Sunnis and Shi'is have been living together for centuries and centuries such as Lebanon and the Levant and such as Afghanistan and Pakistan. To add to this brew of instability and clashes you can throw in the elements of nationalism- and here is where the Kurdish and the Arab issue comes to play inside of Iraq. So if that can also spread, the Kurds could spread their nationalistic ambitions inside of Turkey and then Turkish society can begin to disintegrate and we'll have a transition from nations- this is what the Americans hope and this is what they are planning on having- a transition from a nation state system that has been operating after the first two world wars into a sectarian state system that will become the new feature of the Muslim territories into the future. Within this general instability as Muslims- according to the American master plan- continue to kill themselves this will cause two things to happen- number one, it will secure the national security of the illegitimate state of Zionist Israel on one hand and on the second hand it will leave the oil rich territories open for American exploitation. So American national interest has been accomplished, (viz.) securing the oil fields and securing the nation state of Israel.
Zafar: You mention the Zionist state of Israel- maybe I can move to Imam Delic (and) the point that unfortunately Muslims have fallen victim to the machinations of external forces. Now in Palestine there are no sectarian groups. There are no Shias or Sunnis and yet unfortunately in Palestine as well we have fighting between the secular PLO and Hamas once Hamas gained power or won the elections in January of 2006. How do you see that play into this larger picture and what Imam Al Asi said in respect to securing the Zionist state of Israel?
Imam Delic: The strategy- divide and rule definitely plays in this case quite well. My concern sometimes is not what the other side or those who are opposing us are planning; my concern sometimes is how do we allow ourselves to fall into their trap? How we do not understand that we are used quite well against one another and definitely making all conditions politically or otherwise very unstable? So from that perspective I definitely am challenging Muslim community- not only within Palestine but around Palestine because as we could see there is no much support be it political or be it other support.
Zafar: We can move on to Moulana Hassan Mujtaba (and on) to a final point with respect to how Muslims can prevent themselves from becoming victims of the machinations of external powers? What do we do as Muslims to make sure we don't fall into their traps and work towards Muslim interests rather than the interest of Zionism and Imperialism?
Moulana Mujtaba: For that recovery to happen and for Muslims to be able to unite together or to be able to realise their mistakes we have to find out what Islami Nabi Muhammadi is? We have to find out what the pure Islam is that the Prophet Muhammad bought. That is the only deliverance in my particular humble opinion, (with respect to the panel). That is what is needed and that is what is necessary. If we do not find that out of this garbage and straws of thought process- unhealthy process that have come into the understanding of Islam for the last 1400 years where everybody (and) everyone happens to think and can tell what Islam is supposed to be and what Islam is. As long as that is happening and in that garbage we need to find the pure Islam the Prophet Muhammad brought. If we cannot find that here then we will always be divided because unity came when everyone came together and said Laa Ilaha illa Allah and they joined under that banner.
Zafar: So would you then agree that the Prophet brought neither a Shi'ah Islam nor a Sunni Islam- he just brought pure Islam.
Moulana Mujtaba: Right. In regards to Imam Muhammad Al Asi's speech as well, (I'm sure there's a few people who heard his speech and are going to definitely think about and also going to have some color on their faces after listening to it), but the actual reality exists that Islam is not in the state that it was delivered by the Prophet. Now what are the reasons for us deviating from it? What are the reasons for Muslims to have taken up their own ideologies and left the ideology that the Prophet brought? You can look into history, you can look into the books, you can do your own research, you can put thought to it- Sunni and Shi'ah are two words. As Imam Al Asi mentioned they are mentioned in that Qur'an but it is Arabic terms. These two terms are Arabic terms. Sunnah we are saying is a person who is following on the footsteps of the Prophet. Shi'ah is someone who is following on the footsteps of the Prophet. The difference that we are arguing is what is the source that we can get to pure Islam? If we can all get connected to that source which can lead us to that pure Islam we will not be divided as we are today.
Zafar: Since we are short on time we're going to open the floor to questions. So if you have a question, remember no speeches please- only questions. Here is the microphone you can go ahead and ask a question. If you want to direct it to any particular member of the panel you are most welcome to do so if it's a general question you can do so as well. So you know, anybody who has a question (or) who has been agitated enough to ask a question or inspired enough to ask a question but please remember no speeches. If you want to make a statement make a very brief statement. If you have a question please ask the question.
Q: Today we are talking about a leader. I have one question about Shi'ah and Sunnah. Let me get the solution of this- about Imam Ali. When Abu Bakr became the Khalifah, did Imam Ali accept this Khilafah or not? But I want two way because I read…
Zafar: If I may request you don't tell him how to answer. You gave him the question you don't tell him how to answer the question. Let him answer it please.
… Because I want to clear that Shi'ah say Imam Ali took time to do it some of the Sunnah say truly he did do it. I want to know did he accept. Thank you very much
Moulana Mujtaba: Ok. Now this particular conference that we wanted to have was to bridge the gap between Shi'ah and Sunni. If we are going to continue on those issues I don't think this would be the panel or the place to actually resolve those issues. What we need to get to is what are the issues that we have common in which we can strengthen ourselves and become a force against the enemies of Islam. To be able to answer this question to you in the next two or three minutes that I might be allotted would be an injustice to your question and would be an injustice to the whole history to the Muslim Ummah. In regards to legitimacy which is part of the topic of this conference what you have to ask is: was the first Khalif legitimate to rule over the Muslim world or was he the second legitimate, was the third legitimate, was the fourth legitimate? That's what we're trying to find out for you (and) that your mind starts working on the legitimacy of that leadership which as Imam Asi said would bring authority and then in turn would bring power. So in regards to that question which way are you going to lean on, (and it's quite interesting that you picked me out of the panel to answer this question). Obviously in any statement that I'm going to make- whether it's according to history or whether it's according to my opinion or whether it's according to your opinion- we cannot get to the truth in the next two minutes. So what I would suggest to you is if you would really like to find out about this answer that you go to the history books by being unbiased. That is the main thing we have to do when we are trying to find the truth. We have to separate all what we know aside and look at it as a third person. So if legitimacy is given by Allah to someone and to have authority over people which would give that person power you have to have that as your scale and use that scale to go into history and find out who has the legitimacy given by Allah and the Prophet. As Imam Al Asi suggested, that is the two sources that have authority. In actuality the only authority that exists is the authority of Allah which is given to us from the Prophet Muhammad to the people.
Zafar: Maybe Imam Delic would probably want to add a thing. There's lot's of opportunity for questions so we don't want to make it a one to one debate on one issue. Insha'Allah there are other speakers and insha'Allah Imam Hassan Mujtaba will be speaking later on. We can take up this issue with him further. Imam Delic please.
Imam Delic: I often ask my brothers and sisters to chill out when it comes to this topic. Why do I say this? Believe me when I came to Canada in 1995 I was enlightened by my first conference and my English was very poor I may say. That conference dealt with the issue of Muslim unity. I'm a Muslim- Alhamdulillah I do come from traditional Sunni, (let's say), approach (or) expression of Islam. However when it comes to Sunni-Shi'ah that's not an issue for me. That's not an issue. During that conference somebody asked a question and we had maybe seven (or) eight Muslim leaders. Even though my English was very poor, (at the time), I stood up and I said nobody has right to question faith of people but Allah. That's the field that you and I don't have the right to interfere. When somebody says Laa Ilaha illa Allah you are out of it. So (on the) question of history- again chill out. History is something of the past- am I right? You and I are not responsible for what has happened. Those people who lived before you passed- am I right?
تِلْكَ أُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ ۖ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَكُم مَّا كَسَبْتُمْ ۖ وَلَا تُسْأَلُونَ عَمَّا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ
That was an Ummah that has proceeded. To its advantaged or gain is what it did in accordance and compliance with Allah and to you (is) what you gain once you are in accordance and compliance with Allah and you will not be held responsible for what they did (Surah Al Baqarah verse 141)
You are not responsible for what they have done. You are responsible for what you do and what you are preparing yourself for the future. So my brothers and sisters, (let me conclude with this by saying these words), the problem with Muslims today is that we live in the past. We don't live with the past- am I right? We live in the past and we take all the questions and answers from the past. We don't face new questions because we don't know how to give new answers! So what we do is we go back and we bring transplants or we transplant things from back home- we bring that cultural baggage (and) that traditional baggage into Canada and then we start fighting here. Please chill out.
This is a question for Imam Al Asi. For people like us sitting here in Canada, what are some of the practical things we can do to do something about the Iraq war beyond participating in the antiwar protests? It seems there are huge tragedies happening and there doesn't seem to be much we can do sitting here- so what are some of the practical activities that you would ask us to do or advice us to engage in that would actually help us to contribute to the situation for Iraq and for that matter Palestine as well.
Imam Muhammad Al Asi: Well I think the answer to that is easy. I mean the people in Iraq and the people in Palestine are suffering. It's unbelievable. I even heard some Palestinian brothers saying "we used to be the major Muslim people who have been subjected to all of this pressure but now our Iraqi brothers have surpassed us." Obviously when Muslims are in these types of times and troubles they need our assistance. You used the word practical and to be practical we have to give them the assistance that they need. If they are hungry we have to give them food. If they don't have a home or a house we have to try to see to it that they have some type of shelter. If they are displaced and refugees we have to try to see to it that they are accommodated. These are practical ways. What it needs is some of our resources. If Allah has given some of us a degree of wealth, that degree of wealth should go to where it belongs (i.e.) for those who are in need. These brothers and sisters are in dire need. The figures that were quoted at the beginning of this session are enough to have us get an idea of the magnitude of this problem.
The other thing is I think, which is also practical, is try to get a perceptual grip on this issue. The American and Zionism induced occupation and invasion of Iraq was meant basically for two things if we can say it this way: number one is to raise the temperature of sectarianism and the word chill out is, I think, very appropriate in this context. We should lower that temperature of sectarianism not raise it. Everyone who's trying to raise it is contributing to the problem and not to the solution. The American presence there relies on sectarians. Those who have been dealing with the United States before the occupation… Actually ever since (what is called) the independence of Iraq there was an American presence in Iraq and that was built on sectarianism even though they masqueraded it in the form of the secular Baa'th Party. The new chapter right now (or) the new phase is another form of sectarianism and both of these serve not the Iraqi people or the Islamic interest in the area, they serve the common enemies of us all. The other purpose, (I think), of this occupation is to try to corner and smother the Islamic independence in Iran. So the same people who are serving the occupation to try to drive a wedge among the Muslims against the Sunnis are trying to drive a wedge amongst the Shi'is against the Islamic revolution in Iran. Here is where we see, if we can understand this in its correct form, how the United States of America in its foreign policy supported by the Zionists can actually be trapping itself if the general Muslim public can understand what the United States is doing against the Islamic independence in Iran and against the larger Sunni Muslim population in the world, (if I wanted to use that word). It's targeting both of them at the same time. Only the sectarians are providing fuel for this type of American occupation and presence there.
Imam Delic: We have many, many ways of dealing with it. Canada is a very democratic society. When I go on Parliament Hill to advocate for the Muslim community it seems like we don't have very many people who support it. Believe me, that's the road we have to take. Since we are all part of this society we have to organize ourselves by being present. You know numbers count in politics. However, there is no Muslim numbers. Why? Because when we go on Parliament Hill then one group goes down there with their own problems and the other group goes and you know what politicians tell us? "Guys agree among yourselves and then come here. Agree among yourselves." So what I'm trying to suggest is, you know, Canadian Islamic Congress is one of the organizations that, I think, have the guts to bite the bullet and come forward and criticize and ask questions of our government. I think we have to come on that level to organize ourselves. If we organize ourselves I am quite positive (that) financially and politically we would be able to help our brothers in Iraq and Palestine. If not we will not be able to support financially. Our cause in Canada also can get that political help that we are able to offer if we are organized.
Bismillah Ar Rahmaan Ar Rahim. As Salaamu Alaykum. The question that I wanted to ask was the western societies and the western countries like America or Canada or England have failed to recognize leadership in the Muslim countries for example in Iran or Iraq or Afghanistan. What are the reasons for this failure? Is it because of the migration of Muslims in the western world (because) we have failed to provide a legitimate leadership within our society? Or is it just part of their attack on controlling parts of Arabia or parts of the Middle East? If we have established ourselves in the west and provided a legitimate leadership between both the Sunni and the Shi'ah to be the spokesperson pretty much for what has taken place in the Middle East- would that have weakened the effect of what we see today in Iraq, Afghanistan or Palestine or would that still have continued with what we see today?
Imam Muhammad Al Asi: Let me put it this way- I mean you tried to present this and I think your question could be answered in this form. The United States Imperialism does not recognize the Muslims anywhere in the world- whether they are independent as they are in Islamic Iran (or) whether there are Islamic movements moving in that direction of being free from the control of outside policy or whether we are Muslims here in the United States or in North America or wherever. They refuse to recognize us. What feeds into this refusal (is that) they look at the world in a cold blooded sense. They look at us Muslims and say "this is a divided bunch of people and their divisions are basically making us get away with what we are doing." So we give them the means whereby they say "we refuse to recognize you." If we can get our act together (and) reference was made here to an open Canadian society and I think it's true that Canada is more open than the United States when it comes to the different groups of people because there is more variety in Canada than there is in the United States as far as the nationalities and the groups of people who have come to Canada. So you have a better opportunity but that does not mean that in the larger picture of things that those people who have power- because the United States still up until now even though right now it is suffering from years of military misfortunes and setbacks in Muslim countries- still has a preponderant influence over states like Canada and some European countries and Australia and other parts of the world. So the agenda is being set in Washington and those who are in charge of this agenda are all out Zionists and they refuse to recognize us and we have to come together. We have to begin this process and without thinking about this issue of leadership which we were speaking about today- if we continue to block this issue from our dialogues, from our discussions, from our presentations we contribute to their programs. They'll love us to speak ourselves to death about ritual issues. "Hey look- are you going to wipe your feet or you're going to wash your feet? If you're going to do it this way you are going to become the enemy of someone who does it the other way." That's the type of issue that they want to throw bundles of money at but when we elevate our thoughts and when we begin to speak about an Islamic leadership or we speak about Islamic independence or we begin to speak about Islamic freedom or we begin to speak about Zionism and Imperialism because this is part of our Qur'anic discourse. I mean the word Imperialism and Zionism are not used in the Qur'an but the word al mustakbirin and al mustad'afin and the word Al Mushrikin (are used).
إِنَّ الشِّرْكَ لَظُلْمٌ عَظِيمٌ
… Shirk is of a magnitude of oppression without any equal. (Surah Luqman verse 13)
What's the massive of form of dhulm (or) of oppression and injustice in this world if not represented by Imperialism and Zionism? So if we understood the meanings of the dhulm and we understood the meaning shirk and we understood the meaning of Zionism and Imperialism it's easy for us to understand the Qur'anic discourse. But no! You're not supposed to tread into this area. That's what we have to do. We have to take the initiative. Be bold enough to open up the meanings of the Qur'an to today's real world and thereby they'll notice who we are. If we don't do this we're just fleas and flies in the margins of life.
As Salaamu alaykum I would just like to get the panels opinion on the legitimacy of present day so called Muslim governments, that is whether or not they actually exist and function the way they should and furthermore what we can do to help promote a legitimate Islamic body in this day and age?
Moulana Mujtaba: As far as Muslims governments in the world are concerned the states are only Muslim by name. The only one country that has a system of Islam and the authority of Allah in place and brought upon the people is Iran; other than that there is no country out there that is run by an Islamic system.
Imam Muhammad Al Asi: Yes. An Islamic state is defined by the adherence to the law- the letter, the spirit and the intent that is expressed by the Qur'an and the Prophet. If we take this as a criteria and apply it to the 50 odd nation states we have in the Muslim territory we will realize that we don't have Islamic administrations or Islamic governments or Islamic states with the exception of the Islamic power base in Iran- that's the exception to the rule and we hope, we pray and we wish that this is the beginning of an Islamic political, economic and social process that will grow to include the Muslims from the Pacific to the Atlantic.
Imam Delic: I'm asking about what is going on the other side of the world. I always try to think about what is going on with our leadership here. What is going on with us and how will that impact on what is going on there? When I am asked this question about Muslim countries I always reply with "so called" Muslim countries because we really see how things are operating in our "so called" Muslim countries are concerned. So the leadership that we have to talk about would definitely make a big impact on our way of living here is how we treat our new homeland or I would say home grown leaders. We'll talk about this. My perspective would be on leadership as well and I will talk about this notion of locally grown leaders verses those who come from outside because there is a lot of cosmopolitanism included in this. So insha'Allah talking about this with open mind on where Muslims should stand as far as leadership is concerned. JazakumAllah khayr.
I'd like Muhammad Al Asi to answer my question. If you remember in Afghanistan there were 15 parties fighting Russia; 13 of them depended on America's and they fought the Russians for 16 years and after 16 years Russia left the country. Four years after that they also had some problems among themselves until America without any notice told them "no farm for you" and they stopped helping them with their money. I don't know if you can remember within two weeks Hekmatyar had left the country to Pakistan and two weeks after that the whole party, Hizb Al Islami, in Afghanistan collapsed. That was during the time when we were hearing about the Taliban party or Taliban group. Do you think America had a role in the creation of the Taliban group or Taliban party as we see today? Thank you.
Imam Muhammad Al Asi: I think the information about the magnitude of the secrets and the clandestine activities and the ground work that was set in Afghanistan by the American Intelligence Agencies supported by their client nation states and the extent of it is still not divulged. The Afghani people are still suffering from the consequences of that though and Muslim public perception is still not clear on it; but during those years in fighting against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan the Americans had input into the different factions that were in Afghanistan conceivably through the Pakistani government and into Afghanistan. The sectarianism that appears from all of this right now gives us reason to believe that it feeds into the larger plan of sectarianism that the United States is trying to hatch inside of Iraq to have a spill over effect into the rest of the Muslim world. So I think the jury is still out on the extent of this damage and we hope that it can be limited. We hope the Muslims can outgrow the reactionary mentality to what the United States has been doing inside our territories with the support and the connivance of Intelligence Services that are more or less not free of American control and command.
We have reached the end of our program today. We have heard from a number of speakers discussing a variety of issues including speeches from Imam Muhammad Al Asi, Dr Ziad Delic, Moulana Hassan Mujtaba, Dr Tawfique Varachi and of course Br. Zafar Bangash. I hope you have enjoyed the conference and you have taken a lot away from it. Insha'Allah we will have programs such as this in the future. We hope that you can join us for those as well insha'Allah. Thank you.
Wa Salaamualaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakaatuh
This panel discussion was at a Seerah Conference in Toronto on 18 November 2007.
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